((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
Crocks and Other Matters
Copyright (C) 1992 A Voice of the Free Zone (Electra)
Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes.
>I now "merely state" that these alleged powers of
>Scientology's do *NOT* exist, and that they are a crock of
GOOD. Now we are getting somewhere. There is nothing wrong with
you stating an opposite opinion to me. It is a lot simpler than
demanding proof and calling me brainwashed for my statements.
Further if I demanded YOU prove that these powers do NOT exist
you would laugh me out of court.
So our cards are on the table.
So much more civilized.
>Damn straight I am demanding proof. You claim to be able to
>such-and-such; I claim you are at best self-deceived, and
at worst a
>liar who has been kicked out of a crooked organization because
>weren't quite crooked enough or you were crooked to the wrong
GOOD. This would follow if we assume that powers do not exist.
Anyone claiming to have powers would then be a hallucinating psychotic
with little to no hold on reality, let alone ethics or personal
I couldn't agree with you more.
>You are not just claiming to have *found* something, such
>a spiritual state of nirvana.
You are quite correct, I am claiming something that goes way beyond
some imaginary 'spiritual state', but something much more concrete,
such as the ability to move a chunk of concrete with energy created
by your own attention beams, something that you could do for real
in the actual physical universe and something that others could
Now, will you admit that DOING such a thing in front of the wrong
crowd would or might cause a small tad of a freak out? Come on,
I am being reasonable, I am not calling you names, I am asking
you to admit just one tiny little thing, that if powers did exist,
some people might seriously freak if they were demonstrated on
them in the wrong way at the wrong time. So if some OT WERE to
arrange a power demonstration for you, it would have to be arranged
with some care and thought not only for the welfare of others,
but also of yourself. Can you agree to that?
>*That* I could easily believe, as it
>can be brought about (temporarily) by certain drugs, so why
>meditation triggered biofeedback endorphin release or some
So let's clear this up. Are 'spiritual states' real or just imaginary?
Are they just conscious experiences of a being in a meat body,
or are they really really SPIRITUAL experiences. If we are all
made of meat, then there is no spirit anymore than there is God
or powers or anything, right?
If there ARE true spiritual states, then you and me are both truly
SPIRITS. That would follow no? How far can be take this? Could
a spirit exist outside of a body, after it was dead? Could it
communicate via direct thought or mental image pictures with other
spirits? Could it move a pencil? Could it take over and command
another body as its own? Even a baby body?
Or is 'spiritual' just another euphemism for psychotic bulldunk
and really we are just made of meat and when we die, the conscious
being dies too?
>What you are claiming is to be able to ***DO*** something.
>The correct response to this is generally, "put up or
The CORRECT response is "Jesus H Christ, I hope he doesn't
***DO*** something to me!"
Look, why apriori should he put up or shut up? He is informing
others that he has powers and if others want them they can get
them with some work from him or others. He is advertising to those
who already suspect that powers exist, not to those who don't
'believe' in them, right?
If someone is selling tickets for the Challenger so that people
can fly around the world, and some flat earther comes by and loudly
proclaimed, 'the world is flat you can't fly, prove that it is
round or stop offering your tickets!', you would laugh at him.
There are lots of people who already think the world is round,
and are glad to have the offer. The person demanding proof that
the world is round is irrelevant is he not? His stating 'put up
or shut up' is out of place because there is no need to prove
anything to HIM to get everyone ELSE what THEY WANT.
The guy who is selling the tickets is not demanding or forcing
that anyone believe him who doesn't. He is merely putting out
an ad to those who want what he thinks he can offer.
>Saul of Tarsus and Constantine are two of the most crucial
>converts of Christianity. Not because of how big
>they were in the Church, but because they were at one point
>opponents of the church, who were, IN SPITE OF THEMSELVES,
>by Christianity. Dealing with the opponents of a church is
>important; if one of THEM becomes convinced, it gives much
>to the cause.
Yes you are quite right. I presume that you mean that YOU are
like the two converts and if someone could convert YOU to this
new religion is would count for much. Do I have you right?
Well that is why I am spending time with you.
The Churchies would dismiss you as an SP.
So look the real question before ME now, is ARE YOU WILLING TO
ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG about your position on no powers GIVEN SUFFICIENT
If you are not, then I should not waste my time as you would have
some ulterior motive other than learning the truth.
Perhaps even with a total demonstration of power, you would a
few weeks later just go back into thinking you just imagined it
all and demand proof all over again. How could an OT be sure that
the proof would STICK and you wouldn't just start thinking YOU
From his point of view, would your say-so be enough? Would your
own recommendation of yourself to an OT as a stable and capable
person be enough to convince an OT that the proof would stick?
If it didn't stick and you started to think you were deluded,
what would happen to you, what would you do? Would you attack
the OT and try to ruin him or his life for having played a trick
on you? Would you BLAME the OT for your own inability to believe
your own eyes?
On the other hand if you are able to admit you are wrong come
the time that enough evidence is presented to you, then by all
means you are worthy of attention.
So one last thing. As I have stated many times, IF I HAD power
I would never let anyone know I had power unless they had it too.
Thus from ME you could never get any demonstration of power, however
you might get some other OT to demonstrate power to you. He would
probably be thrown into OT ETHICS for doing so, but that's besides
the point, you might get your demonstration.
But IF POWER EXISTS AS I CLAIM, is there any way you could think
of that the existence of this power could be proved to you without
actually exercising it? If you could come up with some such way
then you would be much more likely to get the proof you seek without
making some OT DO something.
It's round about, and I can just hear you building a flame, but
look we still have this freak out problem to deal with. And someone
who has power is going to be much more open to your desires for
proof if he can prove to you that power exists without actually
Or even just give you some inkling that it might be there to get
you into a probable possibility that power might exist.
One real cheap way that comes to mind is to help you remember
a time you HAD power yourself in the past 75 trillion years. Of
course you would have to have some hold on reality to deal with
a memory that old and not go doubting it. But if its you, its