((My comments in double parentheses - Homer))
 
                             NELSON DEBRIEF
                             13 August 1983
 
                     Copyright (C) 1983 John Nelson
       Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes.
 
                               TRANSCRIPT
 
     D: I'm in Santa Barbara and I've got John Nelson with me, and I've
just asked him a question and that is - "What happens at CMO Int?" and
John answered "I don't want to record any entheta." and I appreciate
that, John.  All right?
 
     So let me give you another question, "I've been told that long ago
you saw Ron's handwritten letter in which he handed over his research
hats to David, OK?, - is that true?"
 
     JN: There was a dispatch in April of 1982 which LRH wrote to David,
and I was CO CMO at the time and he sent me a carbon copy of that, and
the title was "The Organization of Your Unit", referring to David's
Senior C/S Int Unit.  In it he turned over all of the technical hats,
not specifically research, because research was - has always been, the
old man's hat.
 
     What he turned over to him was the Supervision of all Tech until
such time as he came back, -- he was considering that he would drop his
body sometime in the future, and he wanted David to take over his
technical hats for the next 20 to 25 years.  He went into detail.
 
     The dispatch was about 12 pages, and it was single space, and it
went into the fact that he wanted David to correct the Tech, preserve
the Tech, oversee the Tech, and do everything, wear all of his hats -
and in terms of research what he wanted him to do was correct any
incorrect things that were happening, or if there was something false in
rundowns that needed to be corrected.
 
     But as far as developing new Tech - no - that's not what he had in
mind for him to do.  The old man had already researched the tech up to
very high levels, and it wasn't up to David - David would do
compilations, different things in the area, that would assist in getting
the rundowns exported - but there's been so much Tech developed it's
just a matter of compilation of procedure and commands and things like
that - which David was entrusted to do.
 
     And that was written to him - the dispatch was addressed to the
Senior C/S Int - but it was more to David personally, due to the fact
that he had worked directly with LRH for a number of years, and he had
audited him for a number of years, and the fact that he had been a
senior Technical person for at least 10 years.  He's been an auditor
since 1957, I think, and he's been on Technical posts ever since.
 
     D: Thank you.  That's interesting to know.  Were there any other
witnesses of that?
 
     JN: Sure, there was myself, Julie (Gillespie at the time), Merril
Mayo, let's see - Rich Cohen, Vic Uckermann, there's a number of people,
the whole Senior C/S Int Office.  I was given a carbon and the CO of
Special Unit was given a carbon copy.
 
     D: But I don't suppose that any copy of that letter got out - there
wouldn't be any possibility of that, eh?
 
     JN: No.
 
     D: Alright, so, would you say - and I know what you're talking
about when you're saying compiling because David had been doing just
that in, for instance, the "Keeping Scientology Working" Series.
 
     JN: And the "Happiness Rundown".
 
     D: And the "Happiness Rundown".
 
     JN: Solo Nots Course.
 
     D: Solo Nots Course - there you go.  And what I meant to say - Do
you know, is it true that David, and of course you, and other members of
you team, but particularly David, are willing to assume responsibility
for getting the tech applied standardly in the field?
 
     JN: Yes, that is his main thrust and the purpose in doing what
we're doing here - at the Advanced Ability Center - is to preserve the
Tech, overall, because there have been some corruptions that have crept
into the Tech, and more so in the field, but it's been more widespread
than even that, and he figured that - due to the fact that of his
position and his training, and his ability - that he has no other course
except to do that, and he has taken full responsibility to do that.
 
     D: That's fantastic.  That's really - makes every auditor feel -
particularly of course the auditors that are out - because personally -
I wouldn't like to be auditing anything for which I hadn't got a trained
C/S, and of course we are getting to the level where we are very thin on
the ground, eh?
 
     JN: That's true.
 
     D: And it's also of course - I have met for instance, members of
CMO, and they would think - and some people do think - that "splintering
off" means "going off the Tech".
 
     JN: Well, there's a big difference between a "splinter group" and a
"squirrel group".
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: The existing situation has not been able to be handled from an
internal position, which both David and I have tried to accomplish, and
we didn't get very far, and we decided that if it couldn't be handled
internal then maybe it could be handled external.
 
     D: Well, actually John, I came to the exact same conclusion.  So,
John, I would have liked to ask David, but in case I don't get around to
it later, because it's going to be busy here by the looks of it, huh?
 
     JN: Very busy.
 
     D: Right, so would you say that it is possible at this time - for
David to be C/Sing the Advanced Levels?  All the Advanced Levels?
 
     JN: Yes, he is currently very active in ensuring all advanced
materials are correctly applied, and C/Sing them.
 
     D: Fabulous, that's fantastic.  It's good news for me too.  All
right.  So then - let's see - I don't ask that question 'cause I've
already covered it - oh and you've already answered me the question I
asked you - I was going to ask you "What kind of Rundowns that David has
been working on with Ron?" but you already answered that question.
 
     JN: Yeah, well, he actually in 1978 - uh, LRH was very sick, and
David left the FSO, where he was the Senior C/S, and he was called to a
location called the Special Unit, where he found LRH very sick and he
audited him back to health, and it was during his auditing him back to
health that LRH developed NOTS.  You see, when he was very sick David
was running some --- whatever the old man - at first it occurred where
there was a number of weeks where David just audited because he was very
sick.  And then, when he got to the point where he was not quite as ill,
he started giving David basically the C/S to run on him.  And in the
midst of him running this, LRH would tell him to make notes on certain
cognitions and things he was having, and then at the end of a number of
months of auditing him, LRH asked David to collect up all the notes that
he had given him or told him to make note of during the session, and
that's what NOTS was.  That's what became NOTS.
 
     D: Fantastic - That's very interesting John.  Quite interesting to
hear how that came about.  Because, after all, you know, we were sort of
wondering about Ron.  Talking about Ron, do you have any idea where he
is?
 
     JN: No, I haven't seen him since 1980.
 
     D: 1980.
 
     JN: And I know David hasn't seen him since 1980 either.
 
     D: Yes, and is there anybody you know of who has seen him in fact
since that time?
 
     JN: Yeah, Pat and Annie Broker have seen him.
 
     D: Yeah, I was under the impression that Pat and Annie lived with
him.
 
     JN: They do.
 
     D: They do, OK, and would you say that David Miscavige has seen
him?
 
     JN: I don't think so.
 
     D: You don't think so.
 
     JN: Up until the time I left I'm almost positive that he hasn't
seen him.
 
     D: Umm, that's interesting you know, because here we are under the
impression that David Miscavige was sitting on the comm lines, you know
that?
 
     JN: He is sitting on the comm lines.  He's not sitting on the face
to face type comm lines.
 
     D: I get you.
 
     JN: He's sitting on the written comm lines.
 
     D: Right.  Now we got it in perspective.
 
     JN: Yeah, because I was in written communication with him, LRH,
until about June 23, 1982.  I was in daily communication with him on a
written comm lines, and so was David.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: And, at that time I was removed and later David was removed -
and it's a whole different - but, neither one of us have communicated
with him since then.
 
     D: I see.  Now you mean to say that you guys were removed already
in June?
 
     JN: I was removed in June, the end of June, June 25th I think, of
1982, and David was removed in August, I think of 1982.
 
     D: Yeah, that's right, that fits with what I have here, I stopped
you for a moment there, it looked like there was different dates, but
it's the same date.  But that's fine.  That fits with what I've heard.
So now - ah - how do you think LRH is?  Because there are certain
people, particularly in England, I've spoken to who are actually worried
about his well-being.
 
     JN: Well, I mean, I couldn't speak authoritatively on how he is.
My personal opinion, which is my opinion, is that I don't think his
health is all that good.
 
     D: OK.
 
     JN: Because he alluded to that earlier on when I was still on post,
that he didn't - I mean he is getting on his years - and he didn't
expect to stay around forever.
 
     D: No, of course not.
 
     JN: And, he had written to me to that effect, and he had also
written to David to that effect - that he didn't plan to be around for a
whole lot longer.  And, I know he was - he has had that incident in 1978
where he was sick and - my opinion is that I don't think his health is
all that great.
 
     D: Right, but do you think he's still alive?
 
     JN: Oh yes, I'm almost positive, I mean I couldn't swear to it
obviously, but - - - -.
 
     D: Uh, huh.  All right.  Well do you think that LRH knows about
what's currently going on in the Church?
 
     JN: No, I mean, I couldn't swear to that either, obviously, not
being in a position of communication with him at the moment, but I can't
I worked with him for a number of years and - I've never seen anything
like this before-.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: And it's the extremity to which these certain individuals are
going to - it's just not his style.  There's too much entheta.  I mean,
he didn't build the Church on entheta.  And the wild Ethics and Justice
actions that are occurring are just not the way he operates.
 
     D: Thank you.  Let's see, so you had the idea that he might have
been, is, being fed False Data here.
 
     JN: Not necessarily, he might be totally off the comm line.  He
doesn't have to be being fed anything.  He could, I know, well - I was
around when he wrote "Battlefield Earth" and he spent a number of months
writing that where that's all he did.  He just didn't get any other
information.  He just got up in the morning and he started writing and
he wrote until he went to bed.  And he didn't receive any other traffic.
And I know that - he has written a number of other things in the interim
between "Battlefield Earth" and now, and I know he planned to write a
lot more; Science Fiction, and screenplays and movies and things like
that, and those are time consuming activities, and if he thinks that
things are operating or that the Church is in good hands, he would have
no reason to even query it or ask any questions.
 
     D: I understand.  But, like to give you an example of the kind of
false data that's being spread within the Church, the data is put out
that LRH is "personally going to supervise 2 new films".  Alright - one
having to do with Angels and Heaven and God and all that jazz, you see,
- do you think there is any likelihood of that?
 
     JN: No, I don't.  I know - I mean, I was around when the Tech films
were being made and he was actually on the set - directing, but times
have changed very radically since then.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: His security has become even more intensified - there is much
more concern over his safety, and securitywise I just don't consider
that one of the things he would be doing.  But again, that's my opinion.
 
     D: Yes, of course.  But then again, it's also rumored - in England
now - that David Mayo here - was offered a job to work for a splinter
group, he not only turned it down, he went into the org, nearest org,
and wrote a knowledge report about it.
 
     JN: I've never heard that story.  I know it's not true.  Because
I've been with David since the day he left.
 
     D: You have, right?
 
     JN: Yes.
 
     D: Yes, OK.  Well I was just sort of giving you some examples -
because then - the idea was that David was "seeing the light", you see?
 
     JN: What occurred was, David and I both left, because we did not
condone the actions of the existing leaders, and from the time we both
left - he called me up the day he left - and he came over to see me and
he and I formed a business - for a number of months.  You know, about 4
or 5 months while: One - we were destimulating.  Two - we didn't have
any money or possessions or anything, and it's kind of rough to eat and
live if you don't have any money.  So - - -.
 
     D: Not only that, but David had his dental bills to pay probably?
 
     NS: Yeah, he had lots of dental trouble.  And so, our decision at
that time was to just lay low and make some money and - live basically.
We just made enough money to be able to live on.  And slowly over the
months people found out where we were and they started calling us up.
And David would get people calling him up wanting him to do something -
this or that, or the other thing - C/S their folder they needed a
repair, they just came back from one of the organizations and didn't
feel too good and they wanted him to fix them up - and it just got to be
where the phone never stopped ringing.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: And, so at that point we just kinda decided we had to do
something about it.  And so we quit the wog business we were in, and
started the Advanced Ability Center.
 
     D: Sure.  Well, I can tell you from what I've heard around that
there'll be big sigh of relief going around here and there.  It's great,
you know that.  Let's see.  Oh, yes, so what was that other question I
had here in my mind?  Oh, yes!  Why do you think - because it's obvious
to me and many other people that David's framed, OK?  - We do not
believe as Auditors, I would say - oh, 90 odd percent of the Auditors do
not believe, in their hearts, whether they are willing to dare to say
so, that what what was said in his Ethics Order was true.  Not for a
moment, OK?
 
     And I want you to know that and I want you to pass that on to David
unless - if I forget to tell him.  That's - what would you say then was
it that made David Miscavige, or whoever's responsible, take this action
to remove him from post, etc?
 
     JN: Well, that's a bit of a long story but it's the whys and
wherefores aren't really important at this point.  It's like - it did
occur.  And most people know or have been subject to the activities of
the existing management.  And all they have to do is look around them
and see their friends or themselves, and they're examples of what's
happened, and they can kind of come to their own conclusions on similar
things happening to others, including David.  It's just - we don't want
to dwell on any of that.  That's kind of like the past and we just want
to get on with delivering.
 
     D: I know that.  It's just that I had the impression that he might
have become dangerous to them in some way; and that it could have been
jealousy; it could have been a number of things really.
 
     JN: Well it was more like - David would not do things that he
considered unethical or that violated his integrity, both technically
and administratively.  And which made him, I guess you could say, an
enemy of those who are carrying out the current operation.
 
     D: Yes.  I understand.
 
     JN: So, he just decided he wasn't going to play that game - and
they thought that he would or that they could manipulate him to do so
and when they found out they couldn't, then it just - you know - the
ensuing events occurred.
 
     D: I get you.  Well, actually, basically, that is the opinion I
formed myself, exactly, to the letter, almost, without knowing, I just
felt there must have been something like that going on, because after
all, he's been known for his integrity.
 
     JN: Right.  Well that is, I mean that's very true.  The fact that
we both left was simply due to the fact that by staying, and not being
able to change conditions, it had the apparency of us condoning the
existing situation, which we didn't.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: And we did not want our names associated with an organization
that was carrying out the activities that the existing organization was
carrying out.  And that was kind of like the bottom line of why we left,
it was just - I refused to be part of it and David even more so.  He was
very adamant about not playing that particular game that they wanted to
play.
 
     D: Right, And I totally appreciate that because, you know, that's,
I think, the reason why so many highly trained and audited members left.
If I were one of the, I'm sure I wouldn't condone it.  But,
nevertheless, there seems to be still a select few, - well, you know, I
don't know how many there are actually - that are aware of what has
happened and yet still feel that it ought to be done within the Church
or can be done within the Church.  What would be, you know, your
feelings on that?
 
     JN: Well, my feelings are - that I was the very top of the
management org board at one time, and I couldn't change it, so I don't
see how anyone else has a chance of changing it.  I don't say it can't
be done because maybe it can.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: But from my experience, like they say, power either nobles or
corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 
     D: Yes.
 
     JN: And there is no more checks and balances.  There have always
been, LRH has always been, a point of restraint for others who have
sought ultimate and absolute power.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: Well, with LRH off the line, which is my opinion the way the
situation is now, there is no longer any restraint, and there are no
fore checks and balances, so absolute power does reign.  And LRH being
LRH, you know, he was clear enough and OT enough that he could run and
maintain an organization.  The people that are now in charge I don't
consider to be that OT.
 
     D: Yes, yes.
 
     JN: They are, I mean, all being subject to the laws of the physical
universe and the aberrations of man, I consider that their aberrations
are now showing.
 
     D: Right, right.  In fact, what I'm looking at when I was on my
Solo NOTS, I had this tremendous cognition that the only way Scientology
as an organization was going to survive would be to get the Execs up to
NOTS and Solo NOTS, because I believe that they have lost the whole
idea, the whole goal, of Scientology.  Would you agree with that?
 
     JN: Yes, in a certain sense, but I've seen people that have gotten
NOTS & Solo NOTS and I wouldn't want them running the Church either.
 
     D: Is that so?  So you can't even depend on that, huh?
 
     JN: Well, it's not that you can't depend on that, but there are a
lot of other factors.  The physical universe still weighs on us all, and
a Clear is as Clear as long as he is Clear, more or less.  And you can
mock up aberrations as fast as you discharge them.
 
     D: Of course.
 
     JN: And being highly trained and highly processed is certainly the
best way to safeguard it, but I don't consider it, you know, the only
way.
 
     D: Right.  Well, what I was talking about actually was, my
realization that the only way in which we were going to kind of
destimulate this planet by getting more theta than entheta, would be by
NOTS & Solo NOTS, and that would buy us time to Clear the Planet, you
know, kind of the old fashioned - well not the old fashioned way, but -
you know what I mean, the slow way.  You know?
 
     JN: Oh yeah, I totally agree with that.  I was thinking from a
different viewpoint, but I totally agree with you.
 
     D: But that's what I meant.
 
     JN: Right.
 
     D: Because after all, I could see that we didn't have all that much
time and that's why my consideration is also, well - one could keep on
trying to get back on the lines and get back in the Church but in the
meantime you're wasting valuable time and we haven't got that kind of
time to waste, you know?
 
     JN: Well, it's certainly vital that all executives reach the
highest level of processing attainable.  I mean, that, to me, kind of
goes without saying you would assume that that would be true.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: So, everything being equal that would have to be part of it.
 
     D: Yes.  Well, but what we have been observing is that more and
more people are coming into high positions which are virtually untrained
and say, some of them are holding high positions with, say, an HQS
Course or something behind them.
 
     JN: Yes, that's true.
 
     D: And that seems a bit much.  Very difficult.  Because I find that
I couldn't get myself duplicated many times.
 
     JN: Well, one thing that creates that situation is the fact that a
lot of the Senior officials right now have never had to Survive in the
wog world.  They've never had to pay rent or buy food or deal with the
day to day activities of the world.  And, I mean, particularly in the
CMO, I was almost the only messenger who had lived, more or less in the
wog world.  I mean, I didn't join the CMO until I was 26.  And I had
been out in the wog world till I was 22 or 23.  Which doesn't say that
I'd experienced it all, but I had a firm reality on what it took to
survive in the wog world, where a lot of these people don't.  The
current - the Senior messengers right now all grew up in the Sea Org.
They've been in the Sea Org since they were like 8 or 9 years old.  So,
they don't - sometimes your break in reality with them is due to the
fact that they don't have the reality that you have.
 
     D: Yeah - Would that also explain why they won't do anything about
the prices and they don't seem to know that it's just impossible for
people to pay these kind of prices?
 
     JN: Well, they have no reality on ever having had to pay for a
service, or earn the money to pay for it.  Were they to go out into the
wog world and have to earn $6000 for an intensive, it might be a
different story.
 
     D: Exactly.  Exactly.  So there's still one question remaining here
that puzzles us.  It seems to us that this current management is
actually pretty Suppressive, and doing everything they can to destroy
the Church, it almost looks like that.  Now, do you think this is done
on purpose, for their own gain, or would you say that it is a matter of
what Ron talks about in "Essay on Management"?  You know what I'm
referring to when I say "Essay on Management."
 
     JN: Yes.  Anything I could say on the subject would be speculation
in terms of the whys and wherefores of it.  I mean, I've witnessed
things that I consider atrocities and insidiousness and Suppression, but
I'm not sure where or who is actually initiating individual actions.
 
     D: You see, someone can give an order, and I've actually observed
this myself, where I've given an order and by the time it gets to the
receipt point, which may be 5000 miles away, One: It is misduplicated
and alter-ised and Two: It becomes - it has become an order with much
more intensity than I ever delivered it with.
 
     I might say something like: "How are the Courserooms in AOSH UK?"
Now I'm sitting in California asking that question from the position of
CO CMO.  And by the time it reaches AOSH UK it turns into somebody
saying: "The CO CMO says that you've got an out-tech courseroom," and
"Declare the head Sup.!" which was never the intent.  All I wanted to
know was: "How is the tech in the courserooms at AOSH UK?" So, how
things get originated and how they get interpreted down the line becomes
a wildly different matter.  And the more pressure that is put on at
different echelons, meaning actually the misduplication, the more the
outcome at the end is non-survival.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: So I can't - I could speculate myself, but that's just me
personally.
 
     D: Yeah, I understand.  But, it doesn't say much for the
duplication, as you say!
 
     JN: Well, it's true, it's so much water under the bridge at this
point, you know.
 
     D: Yeah, it is.
 
     JN: And we can all look back in hindsight and say: "Well, it should
have been different," or "I wish I had done more," but shame, blame, and
regret isn't going to take us to the Road to Total Freedom.
 
     D: No, I understand.  But I can now understand how it came about
that, for instance, when I talked to a Special Unit CMO, I was told that
the backlog in the U.K.  on the Comm Evs, there's quite a few, 50, 60,
was caused because of Ron Hopkins declaring all these people, all right?
 
     JN: Ron Hopkins?
 
     D: That's right.  That's what they told me.  But when I look into
the facts it turns out that an ex-CO of AOSH UK saw the order coming
down the line to Ron Hopkins to declare a hundred!
 
     JN: Yeah, Ron would not do something like that.  I know him and he
is not that kind of person.
 
     D: I know.
 
     JN: That's why he's sitting out there declared, himself.
 
     D: Exactly.  This is really here nor there, it was just that people
of course were wondering whether the suppression was mainly from the
outside or whether it was sort of created from the inside, and - - -.
 
     JN: Well, I know it's not coming from the outside.
 
     D: You do know that, oh good.  Now that seems to fit.
 
     JN: The whole concept - I mean, here we sit in August of 1983 and
we have a long way to go.  And the best way to do it is to do what Ron
said back in 1978, or 79, which was for us to just "flourish and
prosper" and just push all that other stuff out of the way.
 
     D: Exactly.
 
     JN: Now, we once equated that to be wog suppression, more or less.
Well, now the theme is kinda Universal - it doesn't matter where or what
position you're in, the theme still remains - to Flourish and Prosper
from whatever position you're in.
 
     D: Right.
 
     JN: And the idea is to, from our viewpoint, is just to set up and
deliver the best possible technology and get as many people up the
bridge as we possibly can, and at the same time, raise technical
standards and create an affordable bridge where people can achieve what
they want in the time and the financial references they have.
 
     D: Right.  Well, that makes sense.  Definitely does.  How long do
you think that the Church, under it's present management will last?
 
     JN: That would be a question that I couldn't really answer, I mean
, I could guess, but it's - I don't have any of the facts and I don't -
I mean - I hear all the rumors that have - I hear a number of them
simply because people call me up and tell 'em to me - but that's like
something that we're not really interested in.  We're the Church to
reform itself and change it's attitudes, then I think their chances of
Survival would be much better.
 
     D: Indeed.  They would.  And what would have to happen for you guys
to kind of come back into the Church?
 
     JN: Well, they would just have to change their ways, more or less.
You know, cease all this needless and enturbulating Ethics and Justice
policies and activities.  And create an environment which is what the
Church was originally based on, which is ARC and theta atmosphere.  And
make it possible for everyone to go up the Bridge.  As opposed to a
select few millionaires.  And were they to do that, we would be more
than happy to rejoin if they would have us, or we'd be happy to cease
what we are doing and just let them carry on.
 
     D: Right.  I got somewhere on one of those letters that he says,
uh, resignation, he says - "We'd be happy to again contribute to that
motion," - and I like that.
 
     JN: Yeah, that's true.
 
     D: Yeah, I feel the same way.  Well John, it's been lovely talking
to you.
 
     JN: Thank you.
 
     D: You've really answered some of the questions here and I'm happy
to say that I share many of your realities.
 
     JN: That's good.
 
     D: Thank you very much.
 
     JN: Thank you.
 
     D: OK.
 
     END OF DEBRIEF
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Homer Wilson Smith           This file may be found at
homer@rahul.net              ftp.rahul.net/pub/homer/act/nelsond.memo
Posted to usenet newsgroup:  alt.clearing.technology