DOBBSIE'S EXTERIORIZATION Ah, John Dorsay, my one and only true love, John is a meatball much as I was, however he has serious depth, personal integrity and a sharp and honest mind that actually works and a joy to converse with. > Because whatever Dobbs calls "exteriorization" and the data he can > report is as trivially demonstrable and exactly as useful as my > infinite supply of write-only memory and the data it can report. > Exteriorization is no more interesting than write-only memory. Not if he can see things the body's eyes can not see and report back on them accurately to others. In the movie 'men who stare at goats', the two guys were stuck in the dessert, and one of them was pulling cards off a card deck at random, and the other was telling him what they were. When asked what his longest run of successful calls was, he said over 600. Now how can you say that is not interesting? > You and I went down a much more interesting path recently when we > discussed dreamspace vs meatspace. While I might be able to nitpick > some minor details of your dreamspace model with some success, I > recognize that neither of us can demonstrate its (in)?correctness as > a whole. The same problem exists with the meatspace model of the > universe. > > As I recall, we agreed about this limitation of both models and > enjoyed some generally serious but occasionally light-hearted > discussion about ways one might overcome the problem, and thus > determine that either model is correct or incorrect. But we were > unable to reach any conclusion. I'm not sure that it is even > possible to show the problem is either solvable or unsolvable. OK, I am going to have to pull some orthodox science on you. Every word of which I am sure you know, so this is just for the record and so we talk accurately and not in the language of hyenas and other hypocrites. Theories or models are never true or false, only workable and unworkable. We confuse workable with true and unworkable with false to our detriment. Only direct perceptions of things as they are can be called true or false. The meatball and dreamball THEORIES are theories, to account for and predict phenomenon. The dreamball theory says that consciousness is eternal and prime cause of illusions of space, time, outthereness, and external causality. Dreams in other words. The meatball theory says that space and time are prime cause of consciousness which can render images in itself of what space and time are like. It is asserted that there is a geometric similarity between the conscious rendition of a cube and the actual referent out there in space and time. Space time existed before consciousness, and consciousness is a process in a spacetime gizmo called the brain. When the brain ceases, the consciousness ceases too. The meatball theory claims that love and shame can of force and mass be made. Now the meatball theory is relatively new to the world, and frankly it is in a great state of disrepair. First Newton, then Einstein, and now just about anyone will admit they haven't a clue what they are talking about. All they know is it works up to a point, meaning we are going to need a quantum leap into the next level of theory in order to account for things we have already observed but which violate present theory. This doesn't mean the meatball theory is wrong, it only means it is inaccurate or incomplete, meat can do more than we know. So someone can do the card thing. Or he can see through walls, read minds, move the marble, remember past lives and go dig up the box, whatever. We DEFINE OT powers as any ability or event that violates present meatball theories particularly our understandings of conservation of momentum and energy. God by definition therefore was an OT when he said "let there be light", because that violated conservation of everything! Now whether that God is a conscious sentient being, or just an underlying mechanism, it is pretty clear according to present theories that 'before' spacetime was something that was not spacetime, and therefore the basic creation of spacetime was a violation of conservation of of momentum and energy, and thus an OT event by definition. Thus once spacetime is created, we then like to pretend that OT events can no longer happen on their own nor at the command of a conscious being. First, just because we THINK we have violated these, doesn't mean we have, it might just mean the meatball universe is bigger and more encompassing that we know. Now everything scientific starts off with a observation of some kind of dependable followingness between two different events, and results in a need for a model or theory of causation to account for the dependability of that followingness. Sun rises, cock crows. How come? That's science. The purpose of theory is to change a statistically (too) high probability of followingness into NECESSARY followingness. Cause is necessity of followingness, and necessity of followingness is cause. Once a theory has been formed, predictions usually can be made that allow us to find other observations of followingness that should also exist. So we apply the meatball theory to the guy with the cards. Meatballism ca. 2010 says there are 4 fundamental forces of nature, and consciousness is a process in them. They seek a unified theory of everything, where the 4 are reduced to one, but they also think they can explain consciousness and the facility of perfect certainty with force across a distance. Thus they will fail if it is true that perfect certainty is not possible across a distance. Data can only flow along these forces at the speed of light, and we are pretty good at measuring those forces down to trillionths of an erg. So first experiment is we lay a card pack down on a table laid out up side down and the telepath can read them off perfectly. How do we account for this? A mature person can deal with the hypothetical, he doesn't say well I will think about it when someone does it. The idea is to think about it first, come up with a possible theory, which will then lead you to being able to do it! The hypothetical process is what distinguishes the mature scientific mind from the congenitally defective hyena. Second experiment is the telepath can NOT read the cards on the table, but can if another being sees them first one at a time as in the movie. The first experiment indicates data flow from cards to telepath without the intervention of another being. The second experiment indicates data flow from being to being. Can the meatballs find, detect and measure this? Not in present time. Is it a significant set of experiments? *VERY*. Now meatballism tends to think of 'out there' as all there is, in other words all the cause that flows, flows from point to point through out there. So if we can intercept the causal messenger wave while it is on route, then we can say we have found the means of data flow. But quantum mechanics now recognizes the theoretical possibility that out there is not the source of causal flow, that the meatball universe is a rendition of the outcomes taking place in a higher universe called the non local universe, wherein actual cause actually takes place. It is called 'non local' because events there are not described by locations on space or time, yet which effect the final rendition in space and time. (This idea renders the out there universe to be a TV screen which is showing what is going on in the non local universe. That's gone step away from the dream ball universe, which gets rid of the out there universe entirely, and claims that non local universe IS the global High US consciousness.) The relegating cause to the non local universe allows and explains various experiments where the flow of cause between point A and point B CAN NOT be found in out thereness between the two points, but where the flow of cause is clearly happening anyhow, presumably directly from the nonlocal universe into the meatball universe bypassing anything in between. This would allow instantaneous quantum entanglement between two distant particles, and might allow an INWARD pathway from one consciousness to another allowing data flow to account for the card reading ability between two beings separated by a distance. In other words data in consciousness does not need to flow through the out there model of 4 fundamental forces any more, but can communicate up to the non local universe from one being and back down to the other being without ever going THROUGH any space or time. The dream ball theory has a totally different take on it, namely the out there universe doesn't exist, the conscious renditions we are conscious of are dreams in the zero dimensional substrate of a multi I AM God called the HIGH US, and by definition these dreams are shared via that same zero dimensional causal substrate between beings, that has nothing to do with any thing in the dream, as there is no external cause at all, only virtual renditions of cause, as in a multi player arcade game. Further, although the proof says perfect certainty can not happen across a distance between two different objects of cause and effect, there is nothing prohibiting it from happening in a zero dimensional universe where cause and effect are one event with no space time between them. Since all space time in the dreamball theory is holographic illusion, the colors are real but the out thereness is not, there is no actual space time between any two beings, thus they can communicate instantaneously and do so in the sharing of the dream. IN the dream, things are limited by the speed of 'cause' or light, but between beings there is not such limitation. Note however that allowing intra dream data to flow along inter dream data paths at instant speeds, would seriously mess up conservation of momentum, energy and cause in the dream, thus possibly really screwing up the game, if only by waking everyone up that it was nothing but a dream game. Now the question is, not which theory is right, but which theory is more useful to predict what other abilities there might be, and HOW TO GET THEM. When Einstein first came up with E=mc2, a reporter asked him if that could ever be used to get energy. This was way back in 1913, forgive me if I forget the correct date. He said NO, its just a theory. 30 years later it became a reality with the Atom Bomb and the winning of world war II against some serious evil. Same thing with the dream theory, right now it predicts all kinds of things that most of science has never done, and so it is 'just a theory'. Give it 40 years through and watch what the face of war becomes like. The dreamball theory has a very clear statement on this matter, of HOW to get OT powers back. Now remember an OT power *BY DEFINITION*, so don't argue with it, is any ability or event that violates dream or meat space rules of energy and momentum. Thus any being with such abilities would be like a micro God, able to 'create' a micro big bang space time event in present time. Create one photon out of the blue, and that is what you have done. That a conscious being could do this now, does NOT mean a conscious being did it at the real big bang, but it might mean the conscious being now has tapped into the underlying causal substrate that originally caused and continues to support the existence of space time, be it a dream or not. The dreamball theory shows a quick way to such OT powers, the being chose to enter the dream state, by auditing that choice and its motivations the being can wake up from time, and reenter time again if it wants. Since the being is already projecting the cards on the table, SOMETHING already knows what those cards are and the being can tap into that knowledge by direct perception of perfect certainty, as it had that knowledge coming in, and in fact is choosing to not know that knowledge while in the dream. Exact approaches may vary, but the general approach is to duplicate the choice AND MOTIVATION to coming in and to not know the various things that are not known but which are clearly projected. The dream theory also claims that the being wakes up into the OT eternal state every time it is seriously hurt, and there makes postulates which create psychosomatic conditions in this body, heart, mind and soul, which it can not then get rid of. Again by auditing those moments of ascension during pain and outward 'unconsciousness', the being can amend it's decisions and thus get well again. > If it was possible to prove exteriorization exists, that would also > show that the meatspace model is incorrect. The latter is a "hard", > perhaps unsolvable problem. I am not disputing the possibility that > Dobbs experiences exteriorization, however unlikely I think that may > be. But I am disputing the possibility he can prove it. We must not confuse proof with evidence. The only evidence we would have of Dobbsie's exteriorization is reporting data the body can not see. That is the only USEFUL evidence in a shared universe, where we cannot prove the existence of others, nor of the shared space time the meatball theory hypothesizes is there. The meatballs think that because something LOOKS like it is out there it must COME FROM out there. They forget they could be dreaming. > Just to be clear, I'm not rejecting your dreamspace model. As > tempting as it is to dismiss its requisite preconditions as defying > reason, the same problem plagues the meatspace model when one asks > what came before the big bang. That being said, I can offer a > thought experiment that in my opinion tilts the scale towards the > meatspace model. I can't think of any that favor the dreamspace model. The whole issue of what is 'before' time is mostly a verbal problem in understanding. Our spacetime minds can only understand linear cause and effect in time. The whole idea that a being could 'move out of eternality into temporality' is verbal nonsense, but so many have reported it that one needs to see through the verbal nonsense to what possibly is really going on beyond the hyena cat-calls of hallucination and delusion. If we can understand that space is a holographic illusion, we certainly can at least conceive the possibility that time is a holographic illusion also. I look forward to your thought experiment. Anyhow your position needs to be modified by the possibility that someone actually did read the cards to your satisfaction. I suspect that only absence of evidence in your world for such things keeps you hanging on to the meatball model. When the being is exteriorized from space and time, and sees the coming in and returning to eternality going on with every breath, and he understands intellectually that the existence of the conscious rendition (symbol) does not prove or even give evidence for he existence of an actual physical referent which he has never seen, the whole idea of a meatball universe begins to fade. It remains as a VIRTUAL meatball universe however, accurate down to the last quark. Homer -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Homer Wilson Smith The Paths of Lovers Art Matrix - Lightlink (607) 277-0959 KC2ITF Cross Internet Access, Ithaca NY homer@lightlink.com In the Line of Duty http://www.lightlink.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Homer Wilson Smith The Paths of Lovers Art Matrix - Lightlink (607) 277-0959 KC2ITF Cross Internet Access, Ithaca NY homer@lightlink.com In the Line of Duty http://www.lightlink.com Fri Dec 10 17:05:08 EST 2010